End It For Good: Addressing Drugs and Addiction with Christina Dent

I think We have misunderstood, the root causes of a lot of the problems we're facing. And we look deep enough at those root causes. We would get some very different solutions. And I think that's why. We haven't seen the solutions we want. We have, overdoses at its highest rates in U. S. history. Illegal drug use has doubled in the last 20 years. Overdose is now the leading cause of accidental death in the U. S. So we have these increasing harms instead of things getting better. I think We have misunderstood, the root causes Hello and welcome to a prisoner's pardon podcast. This is Michi J and I am so glad to have everyone listening today because we have a great guest here today. Her name is Christina Dent. Christina is a speaker author. She's the founder of the organization End It For Good. You have to understand we're going to talk about what this is all about, because you need to hear this. She's a mother. She's a wife. She's out of Jackson, Mississippi. That's not far from where my people were raised. So that's interesting in itself. And she also, she has a BA. in biblical studies out of Mississippi as well. It's. so great to have her here because Christina is talking about drugs and addiction Welcome Christina. Thank you. I'm really excited to be with you. Oh, I am excited to, to have you here as well. Now, Christina has been everywhere. You guys, I was looking at her bio. She has done Ted talks and she has been in front of criminal justice, people, churches. She has been across the whole gamut. Now she is talking to my audience, which is. Mostly, people that's been incarcerated, their families, as you all know, I have a brother that's incarcerated who has been dealing with drugs as well. And I needed this solution a long time ago. So I am so happy to have you here. So Christina, tell us more. It's something I miss about what you do. Yeah. So I'll give you the story of how I got into it. Then we'll talk about what we do. So I grew up here in Mississippi, uh, born and raised. I've lived in Mississippi my whole life. Um, and never was close to drugs and addiction growing up. I didn't have that in my family. Um, my friends weren't using in high school or anything like that. And so, uh, it really didn't Come close to me until I was in my early thirties. Like you said, I have a degree in Bible. It just wasn't part of my, wasn't part of my world. Um, you know, I was about as wild as like popping popcorn and watching a movie on the weekend kind of thing like that. This wasn't my, it just, it never came into my field. And so, um, I kind of got to my early thirties with this idea that is a, uh, kind of the cultural idea of people who use drugs are bad people. And so I had kind of just picked that up. I don't remember anybody ever specifically saying that to me. It was just kind of what I picked up from all the things around me is this is kind of a, um, you know, uh, uh, low character or moral failing of some sort, that sort of thing. And so when, um, I was in my early thirties, my husband and I became foster parents. And through that experience, we ended up fostering a couple of different children, but one of them was a little boy who was born, um, to his mom, who was struggling with a, um, methamphetamine addiction at the time. And she wasn't able to, Beat that addiction during her pregnancy. And so when he was born, he was removed from her custody and put into foster care and she would have the opportunity to regain custody of him. Um, and he was brought to our house and we became his foster family. So he arrives and, um, after a couple of days, uh, I take him to go visit his mom at the child welfare office for her one hour visitation time in the little visitation room and I, um, Pull into the parking lot of that office and I pop his car seat out of the car and turn around in the parking lot and suddenly I'm Watch this woman come sprinting across the parking lot towards me, weeping. And she runs over and just starts kissing this baby and talking to him. And I'm still kind of awkwardly holding his car seat, wondering what the heck is going on. Um, and this is his mom, Joanne. And this is the first time I've met her. I feel very suspicious, uh, uncertain of You know, it's real. If she really loved him this much, you know, I was using drugs while she was pregnant and just didn't really know how to understand that. And so, you know, I did what I think humans do when we encounter something that doesn't fit with what we already believe, we kind of try to look for a reason to stop listening. Like, how could I, how could I make my life easier by like disregarding this in some way? I'm looking for some reason to say this isn't real. So I left him for his hour of visitation time. I came back and picked him up and, um, he was just laying on his mom's shoulder. She's just sitting there on that couch. She's not playing on her phone or anything. She just is drinking in this moment that she has with him, this one hour of time before she has to leave for inpatient drug treatment. And he comes back to my house. Mhm. So they got there one hour, she went to treatment, um, but then she would call me from there and she would ask me to put her on speakerphone and she would sing to him over the phone. It was just this incredible experience of her vulnerability. To let me see her as she really is not to hold me at arm's length, not to push me away or to be combative because that's a hard relationship. I thought, you know, some random person has your child. Um, instead she just let me see her. And that was life changing for me because I started to wrestle with, wait a second. I know we're putting women like her in prison and men all the time for the exact same thing that she was doing. If she had been caught in possession of that methamphetamine, um, she would have had a very different outcome than what she was able to have because she was able to go to treatment and she wasn't caught first. So I started wrestling with that and really began this learning journey that ended up happening. Changing my mind completely about how we could get the best outcomes related to drugs and addiction. That's everything from people like Joanne that were struggling with an addiction, as well as everything from how do we stop the overdose crisis? How do we reduce the amount of crime that's related to that underground drug market? It's all wrapped up in this big question about what are the best tools to use for drugs and addiction. And that's why I wrote the book. Curious is to take people on that learning journey with me and to say, I think we have misunderstood, um, the root causes of a lot of the problems we're facing. And we look deep enough at those root causes. We would get some very different solutions. And I think that's why. We haven't seen the solutions we want. We have, um, overdoses at its highest rates in U. S. history. Illegal drug use has doubled in the last 20 years. Um, overdose is now the leading cause of accidental death in the U. S. So we have these increasing harms instead of things getting better. And I hope that Curious, um, uh, is one piece of shining a light on why that is and how we could, uh, reverse that trend. I love the name curious because it captures a person attention and say, like, um, you want to see what's in here. You want to find out what the solution is because, you know, we do have so many families struggling and wondering how, what to do and, you know, constantly going to drug treatments, you know, because the family goes along with them. So. In your, um, estimation, like, what does Curious, in a nutshell, how do you approach this solution? What is the solution for this? Yeah, so I think it's a it's a multi pronged solution because different parts of the solution impact different parts of the problem. So usually people when they're thinking about how do I help my loved one overcome an addiction, they're not thinking about why are cartels South of the border, creating lots of violence. Like they seem very disconnected, those, those problems. They seem like, well, yeah, they're both kind of like related to drugs, but they're totally separate. Um, but they're not totally separate. And so part of what I do in Curious is just take people through what happens when you use the criminal justice system, whether it's for consumers of drugs or whether it's for drug markets. So, um, When you force a drug underground, when you ban it, um, or schedule it, something that makes it where there's no legal market for it, it doesn't go away, but it does move underground. And so you have, um, now the only people that can get money from that are people who are willing to break the law in order to sell those drugs. Sometimes those are people who are just struggling with an addiction themselves and trying to make some money to pay for it. Sometimes if you go far enough up the food chain, you'll get back to, um, you know, cartels or terrorist organizations or somebody like that who is selling, um, uh, drugs in order to profit from that. In a much larger sense. And so what we've done is we've banned so many different drugs that now the underground drug market is worth about 500 billion every year. So you think about this huge pile of cash, 500 billion. And basically what we've said is we just hope that nobody is going to go get that pile of cash. Like we just don't want anybody to, to, to sell it, you know, to, to earn the money. Well, what do we know about human behavior? Humans are not good at leaving cash unearned. They, there is cash to be made. If there are consumers holding out money, you're, there will always be somebody who is willing to sell those drugs for a whole variety of reasons. But it's, it's always because there's cash involved, there's money to be made there. And so that ends up incentivizing crime. And when you have. Lots and lots of crime and it's an underground market. You can't call the police. If somebody rips you off, you've got to go handle that on your own. Um, and you can't, it's not a. In a, you know, you think about trade routes and things like that. Well, that's the way you get that is just through force. You got to just defend your territory. You got to, if you want to expand the piece of your pie, you got to take that by force. And so it ends up creating lots of violence, lots of crime from the market. Fighting amongst, amongst itself, um, and that ends up playing out in the streets. And generally that violence is most felt in the most vulnerable communities, whether that's, uh, our vulnerable communities in the U S or whether that's vulnerable communities outside of the U S, um, that tends to be where most of that is, uh, is centered. And so that was a really challenging thing for me. Cause I hadn't, I have always thought, you know, If a drug can cause harm, you just ban it, and then it goes away, but it doesn't go away. It actually creates a lot of crime, and then it also, um, you don't have any kind of regulatory control over it. So, when we think about the fentanyl crisis that we're in right now with people dying from overdose. About 90 percent of people who die from an opioid overdose today have fentanyl in their systems. But that's happening because there's no regulation around the drugs that they're getting on the street. They can have whatever in them. They can have fentanyl in them. They can have nidazines in them. They can have xylazine in them. They can have brick dust, rat poison, all kinds of things that are used as additives and cutting agents. Um, and there's no quality control like you would have in a legal market where you can look at the package and you know, the ingredients, you know, the potency dose it appropriately. So I'll tell you a little story about this, because fentanyl is such a huge problem right now. And so many people are dying and we, so we think of fentanyl as a lethal. drug, like fentanyl kills people. But when my son, my youngest son, when he was four, it's just a couple of years ago, um, he cut his finger really badly and had to go to the emergency room. So we go to the emergency room and he's going to have to have stitches. And the nurse comes in with a little syringe and she says, Hey, I'm going to give him some fentanyl. It's going to help him feel better before we do these stitches. Simultaneously, you have a four year old, tiny little four year old who's going to get fentanyl. And you also have these 40 year old men who are dying from fentanyl overdose. It's not the fentanyl that is The real problem, it is the lack of quality control and the lack of dosing, appropriate dosing. So in a medical setting, you can dose fentanyl appropriately. Fentanyl is used every single day in every hospital in this country, uh, over and over and over again. It's a very powerful opioid, which makes it useful for pain relief in a medical setting. When it's on the street and people can't dose it appropriately, it is so potent that the The risk of overdose is just so much higher because the margin of error between getting high and dying is razor thin. So you've got all of this harm coming from these underground markets that move underground and create a lot of crime and violence. You get a lot of overdose that happens because of contamination and Um, you can't dose it appropriately and then you have what happens to consumers, which I would imagine there's probably a lot of people who listen to your podcast that have been affected in some way by, um, incarceration related to drugs, whether that's a paraphernalia charge or a possession charge or, uh, you know, intent to distribute or whatever it might be. Um, and so when I started looking at that and thinking about for people who are using drugs. What is the likelihood that an incarceration, that an arrest is going to deter them from using drugs again? I started learning about addiction and what, what causes addiction and, and more importantly, what heals addiction. Because the, the whole purpose of using the criminal justice system is people need. You know, they need that hard stop. They need that pain in their life. They need to feel it, uh, harshly, and that will help them to kind of snap out of it and quit making those decisions. Um, and what I learned is that's actually the opposite thing of what people need to be able to heal because so much addiction is driven by. Pain in a person's life. Mm-Hmm. emotional pain. Uh, mental health issues. Um, childhood trauma, loneliness, disconnection, isolation. Those are the things that create vulnerability to addiction. And so in using the criminal justice system, we're actually adding more pain and trauma into a person's life. More difficulty, more disconnection, and then were confused as to why that didn't work. And I think what we know now about the drivers of addiction explains why that has not worked well for us. There are a few people for whom It was the thing that changed their life. And there are thousands and thousands of people cycling in and out of the criminal justice system because it's not helping them to heal the deeper reasons for their drug use. It's just adding more pain and more hurt and more difficulty into their life. So are you for legalizing it or what do you have a solution in that area or yes, we would say yes, that moving towards legally regulated markets again is going to be the best path to regain control of the market, take it away from, uh, cartels and other criminal organizations and also to regain some quality control and ability to, uh, To control the product that people are using, as well as things like protecting children through age restrictions on purchasing. Um, you know, one of the interesting things I used to think about, you know, prohibiting a drug is kind of like the ultimate form of regulation. Like if it's bad, boy, we're just going to regulate the heck out of it. We're going to ban it. And it's actually, when you ban something, you lose all. Control of it. I mean, you can, people can sell whatever they want. So you've got whoever wants to can sell it, whoever wants to can buy it and they can sell whatever product they want to. And there's no telling what they're putting in that bag that they're selling. And so, um, it's actually a prohibition is an absence of control. It's not. The ultimate form of control. And so, um, so I say that hesitatingly because it still makes me uncomfortable. You know, we have an organization that's inviting people to consider this because we think it is the best way to reduce global harm as well as local harm related to drugs and addiction. But the idea of even adults having. Um, legal access to some of these popular recreational drugs still makes me really uncomfortable. Um, cause I don't want people using drugs. I just, I want, except for medical reasons or whatnot, and I recognize people can use recreationally and that's, you know, plenty of people do that with alcohol legally today. Um, but the risk is there. There's certainly risk there of what, what will happen. And will we be able to educate people? about the risks and help them to make healthy decisions rather than, than unhealthy ones. Um, but when I look at what, what the path is for us to continue down this path and what the path is to actually solve the root causes of those problems, I think people, if you ask them what's the biggest problem happening with. Drugs today, most people are going to say overdose because they're hearing about it all the time. They know people who have overdosed and died now. They know fentanyl is out there. So how are we going to fix that? You can't fix that by just putting more police officers on the street and finding more drugs. As long as there's people who want drugs, there's going to be drugs available. There's no way that you can take enough drugs off the street. To stop people from using drugs. It is, it is absolutely impossible. It's like, um, it would be like thinking we could like empty Walmart shelves and we just steal enough merchandise. Kind of like Walmart knows how much merchandise they're going to lose to shoplifting. And they just send that much more merchandise because they want their shelves to be full. The same is true of the drug market. There is no shortage of drugs. Their shipping is pretty good. As much as they need for whatever the market demand is in a particular area. Um, so we can't, there are no other good solutions to some of these. problems that we're facing to, to address fentanyl. We have to allow some form of quality controlled, um, option for consumers to use so that they stop using contaminated drugs. That's going to be hard. It's going to be hard to figure out. What's the best way to do that? Is it through prescriptions? Is it at a pharmacy? Um, Are there certain low dosages that people could access without a prescription but from a medical provider in some way from a pharmacy where it still can be regulated? And those are hard questions, but I think the The time has passed for us to say the, the solutions are too difficult. And we just want to kind of keep going down the same path. If we keep going down the same path, we're going to keep getting not just the same results, but actually worse results. Because if you look at what has happened with, um, contamination, let's say, so it used to be that contamination happened, but it wasn't a huge problem. The potency of the drugs was not strong enough where you had lots and lots of people dying. But now. Fentanyl's on the market. Nidazines are actually far more potent than fentanyl. They're coming in, they're moving them all around the U. S. Um, we're on a, a march towards higher and higher and higher potency drugs on the street, and that's not going to stop. Um, people are going to continue to die because they can't dose them appropriately. You look at the, um, the rate of how much money is going to criminal organizations. People are still buying drugs and that money is going to go to criminal organizations as long as we do not allow those markets to operate in some sort of legally regulated way. Um, so the answers are hard, but I think if we're, if we sit long enough with the root causes of the problem, um, we might be willing to begin that process of figuring out how do we roll back this criminal justice approach so that we can treat. Drugs and drug use and addiction as health issues, which I think is what they really are. Mm hmm. Okay, so that's what Curious is going into is, you know, um, the legal system. What about the root causes for with the person itself? How does it address this particular issue health wise? Mm hmm. Yeah, so one of the things that I would encourage for any family member who has a loved one who is struggling. With addiction is to go to allies in recovery. So we're not financially connected to them in any way. We just know who they are and they do fantastic work. They're a national organization, allies in recovery. Um, and they offer training, support groups, um, practice groups, all kinds of support for family members. with a loved one struggling with an addiction. And they teach a model called C. R. A. F. T. So it stands for Community Reinforcement and Family Training. And C. R. A. F. T., yeah, C. R. A. F. T. was developed, uh, a couple of decades ago, probably 25 years ago now. And it is a, it's a model that has been studied extensively and has been shown to increase the family's health. As addiction is a incredibly stressful event for the whole family unit. So, CRAFT increases the family's health as well as it actually makes their loved one more likely to seek help for their addiction. So for families that aren't sure, what do I do? Like how do I, I don't want to enable them, but I also don't want to just cut off this family member. Be That I love, but I, what, how do I engage here in a way that's helpful? Craft teaches you how to do that. It teaches you how to engage with your loved one in a way that is not enabling, but does offer them positive reinforcement for making positive choices. And it's really transformative. I, I hope everyone knows about it. And I hope that we get to a point one day where. There's craft support groups, just like there are AA support groups or Al Anon support groups or anything like that. Um, because one of the challenges of, of the groups that are available currently is they tend to say. They tend to teach you how to separate from the situation, but not how to actually engage in the situation in a helpful way. And so that's what CRAFT does. So for any family member, highly recommend checking out Allies in Recovery. Um, they have so many different resources and just do phenomenal work resourcing families who are trying to walk with their loved one through an addiction. Um, and then for people who are struggling with an addiction, I think, you know, Part of the research for the book, and the book really is a memoir. So if people are thinking, I'm not interested in like a drug policy book, this isn't a drug policy book. This is a memoir. Um, this is just my, my, my journey, my story, what I learned and what I think could, could, um, help us in the long run. Um, but one of the things that was so interesting to me is how many people. Who have struggled with an addiction that went through that addiction, having no clue what was happening to them. Like, why, what is, why am I making these choices? Why can't I stop? Why, even though I love my family, why did I just steal money from them? Like these things that are, that are so against their values, their internal. Um, character and yet they're behaving in ways that are not in line with who they want to be and who, who they are at their core. Um, and I think Curious offers them a way of learning about that. Um, I talk about Rat Park, which was a, uh, experiment that was done a number of years ago to, um, to help, uh, figure out, is it the drug that is so powerful or is it something else that's actually the real reason why people are using that drug? So I tell that whole story and experiment. It's fascinating and, um, curious, but it helps give people answers. My mom always used to say hooks to hang things on, like a way to understand, um, what's happening, whether that's a loved one or whether that's a person in addiction. And I've actually had a lot of people in recovery who have read the book and said it was a really healing thing for them to read. I think just, um, Yeah, that, that has really touched me that it has been helpful, even though I'm not a person who has experienced a substance use disorder myself, um, but in talking to so many people and telling so many other people's stories in the book, it's, it's my story, but there's also lots of different people's stories who were included in it, um, including parents of children who have struggled, um, parents who've lost loved ones, Just lots of different stories. So I think it is for anyone who is touched with this issue. Um, my experience has been, I've been hearing from people who have said, this is so helpful. It's so hopeful, gives us a, a way to see a different future that we can be part of where. There's a lot more healing and a lot less harm. Mm hmm. I like that. Yeah. It's because, yeah, we do need better approaches and not just, I'm a believer that prisons are not actually, you know, biblically speaking, it's not, it wasn't designed to cure anything. It was. Designed for, um, punishment in a way not to try and treat the person, but, um, but yeah, but we've lost that way, I think, and that's and we're finding that out because a lot of people are not changing. It's not meant to change the person. Right? So it can't change the person. So with. You know, I love this training craft and just getting into things like that. Maybe they can bring that into the prisons. Do they have that at all? Well, that's for the family members. But what about, you know, um, what was the other one for individuals? Is there any individual one? Well, there are different, um, so there are prisons or jails that do have different recovery programs. Some of them run celebrate recovery programs in there. Um, there are some jails that are starting to offer medication for opioid use disorder. That's a really helpful tool for a lot of people to stabilize their lives. Um, and not be using contaminated substances. There are some jails that are beginning to allow that in, in jails, which is a, is phenomenal because it is, um, at this point, the most effective form of treatment that we know of for, um, an opioid use disorder that is available at least. And so, um, yeah, there's lots of different. options. Very few tend to be available in jails and prisons. And, you know, to your point, I actually was just reading, um, a study that came out. It was an analysis of like 116 other studies on the role of incarceration on, um, recidivism, like on a person, whether or not they're going to commit another crime in the future. And they found that incarceration has no different impact on the rates of recidivism than like Um, probation does. So, being, to your point, incarceration is, um, it really is only useful as a separating of someone from the community. Like, if they are so dangerous that they, they must be held in a specific location away from the community. for joining me. It can do that, but it does not impact. It does not help people make better future decisions any more than just being put on probation would, which is pretty shocking. I mean, that's, we've got lots of people in prison for whom the, the reason we put them there is because we're hoping it changes their future behavior. Um, and yeah, it's not designed for that. It can't, it's not doing that. It really can't do that. I mean, you're, you're asking people to find healing for deep wounds. In a place where violence and abuse and, uh, and drugs are rampant, people can get drugs easily in prison. And so it's not helping them overcome their addiction. There certainly are a few people who have a life changing experience there, but the vast majority, um, do not. And it makes life, um, a whole lot harder. Mm hmm. Yeah. Now, if we can just get people to see that point and, uh, help find the solution, you know, and use. The tool of prison appropriately, you know, just like you said, some people don't need to be there and they need to be in treatment. Maybe it's, you know, but it's, it just depends on the circumstances and the person, you know, it's not for everybody, but yeah, this is very good. I like that you took the time, you did this memoir cause I was going to ask you, you know, how did you know this? How did you know, and just listening to people's stories. And I think it's going to resonate. With you know people that haven't been exposed to this because how would they know you know? Yeah, you're making judgments without much information, and that's just a tendency. We all have yeah No, we're gonna feel it was something if we don't know so that's right So we just make it up you know so and then we like well, that's that's That's not what I believe in. And, uh, thank you for seeing that it was a difference in a person. Uh, the mother is an individual that is going through some things and, and we do really need to get to the core, like what's the fundamental problems and start addressing that, and a lot of times I'm seeing all these government programs meant to help is always harmful. Yeah. Yeah. Always turns out to be very harmful because, we have not the right things in place and some of the people are not curious, not reading your book and just doing the research. They're just throwing it out there. I just got this degree in here and there and I know what I'm doing. And it's like, you, how can you Do that and you haven't even looked at it and don't even, you know, it's not working cause they, they don't go back and look at the stats and stuff like, Hey, you need to fix this. It's not working. So yeah, this is wonderful. is there anything else? as we wrap this up, you want to say to the audience about curious, I know I'm going to put it in the show notes, how to contact you. I actually joined and subscribed to get you because, you know, just to stay. Posted on what's needed. It seems like you've got a really good handle on, the lawmakers and what's coming out and hopefully getting them to. to write some better bills, um, some laws and put it in place. And hopefully we do something, I hate to say it about that border, how it's getting in here, but what, what would you, what else would you say that's really, you want to say to the audience to about curious about, uh, especially people who haven't been exposed to drugs at all. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd say, um, so I've got some free copies for your listeners. So the first five people that email us, we'll send a free copy of curious to you. You can email us at curious at end it for good. com. That's like E N D. And it for good. com. So curious at, and if we're good. com shoot us an email, first five people will send a free copy of it too. Um, you can also get it on Amazon. The audio book will be out in just a couple of weeks. There's a Kindle version. Um, and there's also, we have just some resources on our website that you can get to. You can go to end it for good. com slash freebies. And we have three ways you can help someone struggling with an addiction. We also have one called, um, five keys to having productive conversations on polarizing topics. If you've ever tried to, ever tried to share your passion about something with someone and you just feel like you hit the brick wall, um, we've, we've learned a lot doing, uh, lots of events and lots of speaking and talking with lots of people about how. How can we help people be, be curious about whatever our issue is? For us, this is this issue of drugs and addiction, but for other people, it's other passions and that's great. So if you have a passion for something and you're trying to figure out how to help other people be open to listening, um, we wanted to just help people. Be able to, to share their passions with the world in a more productive way. And so you can go to end it for good. com slash freebies. And yeah, we would love to hear from you. Um, uh, this, this type of thing, every movement in history, it starts with. Just regular people, regular people who make it their passion, who make it the thing that they're going to put some time and effort into, um, into sharing it with other people, we grew into an organization because people just invited other people, Hey, you should come and come to one of these events. Hey, you should read this article. Hey, you should read this book. Um, it's not because. We can reach everyone, it's because through all of the people who have connected with this movement, they are now taking the movement and helping to reach other people with it. Um, and that is how all movements grow. And we hope this is one where we look back in 50 years and we all just shake our heads and say, I cannot believe that we used to think that incarceration was going to solve addiction, that it, that it becomes just something that seems, um, unbelievable to us, that that would have been a time in history and that we would leave that behind, just like we've left a lot of other things behind that have needed to be changed over time. And we have realized when we, when we learn something new, when we know better. It's time to do better. Um, and I think this is one of those areas where we can, that's excellent. I love this approach because, you know, what you're doing is helping with the communication because it has to start with the communication and being able to listen, you know, be able to see. Translate, be able to receive if you don't have a good receiver, you're not going to understand the knowledge. So this is really, really good. I really thank you, Christina audience again, the first five people get free books and tell them prisoners. Pardon me, TJ sent you. So I really thank you for coming. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience and just being honest and open yourself about what. We don't know what you don't know. So, and we all need to do that because we don't know everything. We need to just listen at times. So, and thank you all for listening. Well, that's it for today. Thank you for listening. And may you have a week filled with blessings. God bless.